Hi everyone
I'm an older apprentice with a background in IT about to finish my apprenticeship and become qualified. I have a couple of questions about the paper(COCs and ESCs) work when doing jobs.
Is there a way legally that COCs and ESCs can be done electronically and stored? I have seen that there are some editable pdfs floating around that can be printed out and signed and given to the customer. Can you scan your signature into the pdf and email it to the customer? or for legal reasons does it need to be printed, you sign it then scan it and email it or save it to your computer for 7 years?
Does any one use or know of any apps or programs that you can have on a cell phone, tablet or laptop that can be used for storing test results as you go around testing an installation? I know you could use a spreadsheet, but want to know if there is software intended specifically for the purpose.
Thanks
Electronic recording of test results, COCs and ESCs
Re: Electronic recording of test results, COCs and ESCs
There's no reason certification documents for electrical work in installations can't be entirely electronic.
Including the signature(s) - this aspect was covered by the Electronic Transactions Act 2002; but my understanding is that Act has been revoked and the relevant provisions are now elsewhere; presumably the Contract and Commercial Law Act 2017 (which includes the revoking of the earlier Act).
As long as all the required data is included, an electronic cert is valid.
The obstacles to using all-electronic are mainly practicality;
Partly due to the diverse array of people who have to sight the documents and / or attach them to other documents.
Including the signature(s) - this aspect was covered by the Electronic Transactions Act 2002; but my understanding is that Act has been revoked and the relevant provisions are now elsewhere; presumably the Contract and Commercial Law Act 2017 (which includes the revoking of the earlier Act).
As long as all the required data is included, an electronic cert is valid.
The obstacles to using all-electronic are mainly practicality;
Partly due to the diverse array of people who have to sight the documents and / or attach them to other documents.
Re: Electronic recording of test results, COCs and ESCs
The editable PDFs are what I use.
The only issue is that if you send that PDF to a client, it is still editable - so any details could be changed.
The way I am getting around that, is to print it to another PDF document, which then isn't editable. Maybe there's a way to lock or password protect the original, but printing to PDF is a reasonably easy step, even though it's an additional step.
It also means that you have to keep and manage two copies of the document (if you keep both).
What are your thoughts on the keeping detailed test results AlecK (on or off the COC)?
The only issue is that if you send that PDF to a client, it is still editable - so any details could be changed.
The way I am getting around that, is to print it to another PDF document, which then isn't editable. Maybe there's a way to lock or password protect the original, but printing to PDF is a reasonably easy step, even though it's an additional step.
It also means that you have to keep and manage two copies of the document (if you keep both).
What are your thoughts on the keeping detailed test results AlecK (on or off the COC)?
Re: Electronic recording of test results, COCs and ESCs
Depends on circumstances- it's about mitigating risk.
EWRB regard records of test results as somehow 'proving" that testing was actually done.
Whereas all it really proves is that the person knows what sorts of values are acceptable.
Especially when most test results records sheets only permit one value to be recorded; when there could be 20 or more of , for example, earth continuity tests for a single circuit.
When inspecting mains work, I record test results (I use the ME self-carbon paper forms; which have appropriate spaces for the testing required)
Also for check-&-connect for homeowner work, using forms I've developed; one for testing circuits @ swbd, and one for visual checks & tests at EVERY point. Standard forms don't suit unless you know exactly what points are on which circuit. And unless you wired it, you can't know where each branch of each circuit ends for EFLI.
For normal install / test / connect; I do the testing but don't usually bother recording.
Not only is testing a legal requirement; but it's the only way to be sure you haven't made a stuff-up.
And that some f-wit hasn't damaged your cable since you did the first-fix.
Once had a builder move a section of wall a few inches, between first-fix and fit-off. Took me a while to work out why the HTR on that bit of wall had no power. Seems he ran his sabre-saw along top (& bottom) of the wall, and cut right through the cables - and then lined over it, & never said a word.
Filling in records takes time; and time is money.
Even with modern "recording" meters you still need to enter a lot of data in order to tie each reading to the relevant point on the relevant circuit.
My logic being that a CoC is a form of statutory declaration. Signing the mandatory declaration that the work was done 'lawfully & safely" includes that the required testing was done.
If my signature on a legally-binding document isn't good enough evidence that i tested, then i can't see that keeping a test records sheet - that any fool could fake - is any better.
If someone wants to call my legally-binding declaration a lie, then should be up to them to provide evidence of their assertions.
Innocent until proven guilty; not the other way around.
EWRB regard records of test results as somehow 'proving" that testing was actually done.
Whereas all it really proves is that the person knows what sorts of values are acceptable.
Especially when most test results records sheets only permit one value to be recorded; when there could be 20 or more of , for example, earth continuity tests for a single circuit.
When inspecting mains work, I record test results (I use the ME self-carbon paper forms; which have appropriate spaces for the testing required)
Also for check-&-connect for homeowner work, using forms I've developed; one for testing circuits @ swbd, and one for visual checks & tests at EVERY point. Standard forms don't suit unless you know exactly what points are on which circuit. And unless you wired it, you can't know where each branch of each circuit ends for EFLI.
For normal install / test / connect; I do the testing but don't usually bother recording.
Not only is testing a legal requirement; but it's the only way to be sure you haven't made a stuff-up.
And that some f-wit hasn't damaged your cable since you did the first-fix.
Once had a builder move a section of wall a few inches, between first-fix and fit-off. Took me a while to work out why the HTR on that bit of wall had no power. Seems he ran his sabre-saw along top (& bottom) of the wall, and cut right through the cables - and then lined over it, & never said a word.
Filling in records takes time; and time is money.
Even with modern "recording" meters you still need to enter a lot of data in order to tie each reading to the relevant point on the relevant circuit.
My logic being that a CoC is a form of statutory declaration. Signing the mandatory declaration that the work was done 'lawfully & safely" includes that the required testing was done.
If my signature on a legally-binding document isn't good enough evidence that i tested, then i can't see that keeping a test records sheet - that any fool could fake - is any better.
If someone wants to call my legally-binding declaration a lie, then should be up to them to provide evidence of their assertions.
Innocent until proven guilty; not the other way around.
- Rating: 33.33%
Re: Electronic recording of test results, COCs and ESCs
Missed an essential aspect yesterday:
For PEW where I'm not the one connecting to supply; ESR 73A (3) requires documentation of test results to be sighted by the person connecting.
There's no specific requirements as to the form of documentation; so it's up to the person concerned what they accept.
But IMO the minimal partial-record that's on many CoC forms (including EWRB's) is nowhere near enough.
For PEW where I'm not the one connecting to supply; ESR 73A (3) requires documentation of test results to be sighted by the person connecting.
There's no specific requirements as to the form of documentation; so it's up to the person concerned what they accept.
But IMO the minimal partial-record that's on many CoC forms (including EWRB's) is nowhere near enough.
- Rating: 16.67%