Old unknown cable

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Dan L
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Old unknown cable

Post by Dan L »

Today on a new install electrician had used a potentially very old unknown cable that was in storage.

It's a 3 phase neutral screen. It looks like vir, it's def an imperial size and is tinned copper.

I would assume this unknown cable can not be used for a few reasons.


3008
3.3.7 Other cable types
This Standard provides current-carrying capacities for types of cables that are considered to
be in common use. For cables not included in this Standard, cable manufacturers should be
consulted for recommendations on the current-carrying capacity and acceptable methods of
installation.


But as its unknown this can not be known.

2- for the same reason we can use any old cable from any random country surely every we use has to be to nz standard. And if its anew install the cable must also be to current standard.

This is the info iv been trying to find in esr but can't anything I feel does justice.

I could be wrong but feel theres something obvious I'm missing that would cover this

I found some info on work safe that pointed me to safety act 1992 but I couldn't not find much

Any help much appreciated.
AlecK
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Re: Old unknown cable

Post by AlecK »

Nothing on ESRs or Wiring rules requires all cables used to be new; or to comply with any particular Standard.

Smaller cables are DMRAs, needing SDoC for sale / supply; but that doesn't affect installing them.
Wiring systems must comply with 3.2 of "3000' but that allows for equivalent safety so doesn't preclude use of old cable.
The only tie to "3008" series is via 3.4; about CCC. And there's ample guidance around on comparison of sizes, and for tinned copper .

someone will have to certify the work, and thereby accept liability for it.
Dan L
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Re: Old unknown cable

Post by Dan L »

Not even reg 80 and appendix a in 3000?

Here us some info copy and pasted that i though made sense but it could be wrong

"Electrical Contractor Obligations

Electrical contractors purchasing and installing electrical equipment should understand their legal obligations and know how to minimise their risk. Electrical contractors are a part of the supply chain of electrical equipment and have obligations under state Electrical Safety regulations as sellers/ suppliers as well as installers of electrical equipment. Electrical equipment sold, supplied and installed by electrical contractors must comply with the specific product standards listed in Appendix A of the Wiring Rules (AS/NZS 3000: 2007) as well as AS/NZS 3820 Essential Safety Requirements for Electrical Equipment. Electrical equipment standards exist to provide a mandatory minimum level of safety and performance."

So if say the electrician certified this potential old unknown cable and the cable was used for mains and inspected.

Would the electrician and inspector both take responsibility of this cable?
. Thanks for the reply
Dan L
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Re: Old unknown cable

Post by Dan L »

Also here's a link saying everyone who supplies must comply, so I'm assuming the electrical contractor would be the supplier?

Not saying your Incorrect but just giving you the reasons behind why I was thinking that way
https://worksafe.govt.nz/topic-and-indu ... uirements/
AlecK
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Re: Old unknown cable

Post by AlecK »

Often the installer is also the supplier; but it's important to keep the 2 roles separate, because there are different requirements for each.

Electrical fittings (which includes cables) supplied / sold must be electrically safe [ESR 80].
There are a number of ways of them being deemed safe (different for new vs used fittings); but unless the fitting is a declared article there are no requirements for compliance with particular product Standards.
Conductors for building wiring above 16 mm2 are not declared articles (so size matters).

But the obligation for a DMRA to have an SDoC [ESR 83] or for a DHRA to have an Approval [ESR 84] only applies to the process of selling / supplying, not to installing.


There's also ESR 113, which not only allows installations / fittings to remain in service (provided 3 conditions are met);
but also allows older fittings that were once deemed OK to continue to be sold & used. Including being re-used.

So as an installer, I'd be checking the size, and following available advice as to equivalence. Could also look up old Tables fo CCC, but that wouldn't lead to compliance with 3.4 which specifies CCC i.a.w "3008".
As long as the insulation is still sound, no reason not to use it.
Even the colour ID rule that forbids yellow actives only applies IF colour is the chosen means of conductor ID .
Noting that the ban on using green/yellow for anything but earthing us absolute 9for installation wiring).

Primary responsibility always falls in the person connecting.
Certifiers and inspectors carry some responsibility.
The installer has little responsibility, unless they also certify the work.

But all these responsibilities relate to safety 1st and compliance with wiring rules second; and not to compliance of products with product Standards.
That's just something the various parties can take into account when issuing certificates.

Nothing in either ESRs or Wiring Rules requires a length of cable to comply with a particular product standard before it can be used.
There are some products / fitting types that are restricted that way - downlights being an example. but it's very rare.

Not sure where you found the statement:
"Electrical equipment sold, supplied and installed by electrical contractors must comply with the specific product standards listed in Appendix A of the Wiring Rules (AS/NZS 3000: 2007) as well as AS/NZS 3820 Essential Safety Requirements for Electrical Equipment.";
but it's quite simply wrong - on both counts.

compliance with a relevant recognised standard is not a requirement;i it's simply the primary way of becoming assured that the product meets the fundamental requirement to be electrically safe.
Not complying doesn't automatically make the product unsafe.
Dan L
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Re: Old unknown cable

Post by Dan L »

Thanks mate your a legend. Yeah as I would be the inspector and person connecting I don't feel like being responsible for some old vir cabke to be used as mains.
After all we are trying to get rid of that crap not Instal it.

Thanks mate
Dan L
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Re: Old unknown cable

Post by Dan L »

Declared article? The cable is imperial roughly 8mm
JamieP
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Re: Old unknown cable

Post by JamieP »

I was going to say if the 75°c insulation temp limit played any part as it says anything lower that is not suitable for NZ or Aus conditions but noticed this is actually just for Polymeric cables, doesn't have a restrictions on anything else

3.4.2

Anyhow, very informative read this one
TPower
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Re: Old unknown cable

Post by TPower »

Maybe this is helpful. Info is on Worksafe’s website:

Cables and wires must comply with either:
1. Standards listed under the ‘Electric wires and cables’(external link)
 section in Schedule 4 of the Electricity (Safety) Regulations 2010
2. AS/NZS 3820:2009 Essential safety requirements for electrical equipment
3. The Conformity Co-operation Agreement (China – NZ)

https://worksafe.govt.nz/topic-and-indu ... and-cables

I wouldn’t be in a hurry to pull out that drum of VIR that’s been sitting in your grandads shed for 50 years and start installing it.
AlecK
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Re: Old unknown cable

Post by AlecK »

The "must comply with" bit is not true; there's no Reg stating that.
What it says[ESR 80] is they must be safe, and those three methods are guaranteed to get you to "safe" (for new fittings).
There's a faction within worksafe that simply doesn't understand that 'xyz is deemed to comply' is NOT the same as a 'must comply with xyz".
Which is why they keep publishing this sort of guidance; that is based on a fundamental error in reading the official documents.
And you'll find a big fat disclaimer on Worksafe website, meaning that we can only rely on the Act , ESRs, & Standards; and not on the guidance they publish.

That said; complying with "3820" is easy - it's only a few pages long, and very basic.
Proving it via lab test would be costly; but don't need to prove it as far as installation goes.
And if cable is in good nick, ESR 113 says it can still be sold, and installed, and used.

There will be a CoC; but as the inspector you can't rely on it - you must do your own checks, tests and 'other" actions.
After which; if you're not happy, don't issue RoI.
They'll soon find another Inspector.
But unless your decision is based on the work failing to comply with a particular clause; don't expect to be paid for the inspection.
An Inspector doing a third-party inspection [ESR 70] is not a policemen; but just a specialist subcontractor.
The terms of the contract are to inspect to ESRs 7 cited standards; so we're not entitled to bring in our own views of what is, or should be, acceptable / preferred practice. We have to work to the letter of the rules.

As the person connecting, you just need to do the pre-connection checks listed in ESR 73A.
That includes sighting CoC & RoI - but since you are entitled to rely on them (which removes your liability for those aspects), you don't have the option of refusing to connect just 'cos you don't like something.
Dan L
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Re: Old unknown cable

Post by Dan L »

Thanks team
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