How long do we have to issue a CoC?

[JamieP]

ESR74E "(2) The responsible person must, within 20 days after completing the work, pro-
vide a copy of the certificate of compliance"

But that only applies once work is completed

Looking at ESR65 (3) and (4) work isn't completely until a CoC is issued, so until a CoC is issued then work isn't completed and if work isnt completed then the requirements of ESR74E don't apply

But ESR65 doesn't specify a time to issue a CoC

Is this likely a mistake?

[AlecK]

Correct that work isn't completed until certified.
and that once a CoC is issued; 74E then starts a timer for provision of copies.
But there is no time limit for issue.
And there's also nothing that makes it anyone's responsibility to issue; or even to ensure that a CoC is issued at all.
What drives that part of the process is that whatever was worked on can't lawfully be connected until certified.
And the person connecting has to sight a CoC issued no more than 6 months previously.

[JamieP]

This has stemmed from a conversation in regards to someone who had run cables, essentially prewiring a job but has left such job for whatever reason

There is large argument between whether, simply running cables, requires a CoC, my thoughts, due to ESR65 and Schedule 1 are that this is PEW and will require a CoC to be issued at this point as they have finished there section of the work

Many people argue the other way, saying that if not connected, no CoC required which is believe is just crap

Obviously if not certified now, it will become the issue of whomever, if anyone, completes the rest and will be this way regardless if longer than 6 months, if I was asked to finish something like this, I would wanting a CoC to rely on or simply be restarting but this isn't about what I'd want, or what anyone wants, I'm just curious around if it's a requirement or simply something that people just do for the next person

What are your thoughts around this?

[AlecK]

Yes, it certainly is PEW
And being installation work, is at least general PEW; so a CoC is definitely required by ESR 65.

Where work is incomplete, or where it was only intended as provision-for-later;
whatever was done should be certified, but with care:
- the description of work needs to be carefully detailed,
- the info about being "safe to connect" [ESR 67(1)(f)] will state "Not safe to connect" .

However because ESRs do not make any particular person responsible for issuing a CoC, there can be no offence of "failing to issue" it.
This aspect is unique to CoCs; as an RoI must be completed by whoever did the inspection, and an ESC must be issued by the persin who made final connection.
But CoCs are different.
- they can be issued by anyone; whether they did any of the work themselves or not;
- there is no time limit on issuing (only on delivery after being issued); and
- no specific person is made responsible for issuing.

The widespread concept of "self-certification" - ie that the person who did the work has to certify it;
has always been a convenient myth, ever since it was introduced in 1993.

In most cases, the requirement for certification-before connection means that a CoC does get issued without undue delay;
and usually by a person who did at least some of the work.
The owner wants the work connected; and won't pay until it's completed.

But this system can fall over where work is not fully completed.
And if it's left uncompleted for more than 6 months, then even if a CoC was issued at the time;
it can no longer be relied on by whoever comes along later to finish it off and connect it .

The only "driver" I know of that encourages people to issue a CoC for incomplete work, is to avoid being blamed for things you didn't do and / or were not responsible for.

[DougP]

Except that ESR73A(1)(c) requires the COC to be issued before the installation or part installation is connected to a supply.
So issuing the COC any time after the work is connected (other than for testing), must be an offence under 73B right?

[AlecK]

No.
The offence would be connecting without sighting a CoC (and RoI if req'd).
Which is something that networks do all the time - and get away with 'cos nobody complains.

[AlecK]

Noting that EWRB recently "convicted" someone for failing-to certify.
Seems they - and their lawyers - have also failed to notice that there is no requirement placed on any person to issue a CoC

[DougP]

But in a simple case of someone running a cable for a socket outlet, they must sight the COC before they connect it.
There is a requirement that the COC is issued before connection right?
So that's the offence.

[AlecK]

You can only be taken to task for doing, or not doing, something you have a duty to do / not do.
If someone issues a CoC (or RoI, ir ESC), then they are responsible for validity of all the info it contains.
For RoIs & ESCs there's a duty imposed on a particular individual to issue.
But there's no such duty imposed on any person WRT issuing a CoC.
Therefore no-one can be properly charged with failing to issue one.
The simple defence would be: where does it say that I have to issue a CoC?"; and the only answer "nowhere".

ESRs say general & high-risk PEW must be certified. They don't say by whom.
You may have done the PEW; and I, like thousands of other practitioners, may have had nothing to do with it.
But the person who did it is no more required to issue a CoC than the rest of us.

But a person connecting - more correctly about to connect - does have a duty to sight a CoC
If there's no CoC available, or if the only CoC is more than 6 months old; they have the option of issuing a CoC themselves (if they're brave enough).
The other valid option is to not connect.
If they go ahead and connect when no CoC has been issued, then the offence can only be connecting contrary to a requirement; not failing to issue the CoC.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not advocating that people stop issuing CoCs - far from it..
Just pointing out that natural justice says you can't be punished unless you breach a requirement - and there's absolutely no requirement for any person to issue a CoC.

[PeteRig]

Interesting Alec, so are you saying that ESR 65 (1) tells us when a COC must be issued but no where it says, who has to issue it, so for example you or anybody else (if brave enough) could issue a COC for work I have done, even though you dont know me or haven't seen the work I completed?
Do you think this was the intent when ESR 65 was written or a mistake?
I suppose in away this is like acting under an employer license?

[AlecK]

I think it was actually deliberate.
No need to put a time limit because officially all that matters is that the CoC gets issued before connection happens.
And they don't care who issues it; as long as someone accepts responsibility.

For larger contract-type jobs it's better this way, we wouldn't want to have individuals each issuing CoC for the bits they did personally.
Even small jobbing work can have 2 or more people doing the PEW between them.

65 says COC must be issued - but no "by whom" and no "by when".
Been that way since 1993 Regs.
65 also says also that work isn't complete until certified.
Which brings in a commercial pressure to certify (can't charge for incomplete work?); but not a legal one.

73A sets the when: before connection.
and for 90+ % of jobs, that works fine.

Once the CoC is issued, 74E starts a separate timer for delivery of copies

[JamieP]

Just a bit further going over this

So am I correct in saying CoC must be issued before connection? (ESR 73A as discussed above)

The work then being completed starts a timer and we have 20 days to provide a copy to the person who contracted the work (occupier/owner if they aren't available) (ESR73E) and also 20 working days after connection to issue a ESC?

So anytime we connect, walk away and issue a CoC after the connection at the job technically we are committing an offence under 73B for not issuing or siting before connection? Even though the real work probably operates in this way?

[AlecK]

Yes; CoC must be issued before connection?
Issuing of the CoC completes the work; which starts the 20 WD timer.

Yes; technically an offence to connect first and issue CoC after.
And as you say, this is what happens most of the time.

----------
The legal driver for issuing CoC is that the work must not be connected to supply unless it has been certified.
For most minor work, what matters in practice is that all required steps (testing, certification, connection, ESC) have happened;
not the exact order they happened in, nor who did what..

The commercial driver is that you can't normally charge for work unless the work is complete.
A customer will not know about all the little steps in the process. Nor care about them.
They just want their new socket outlet / light / appliance working
And they generally won't want to pay until that happens.

[JamieP]

Thank you, I just wanted to confirm

So in a complete legal order per regulations it should go as follows for general risk work

CoC issued or sighted
Connection to supply (starts 20 working day timer to issue ESC)
Work completed (starts 20 day timer to provide copy of CoC)
Provide copy of CoC before times up
Issue ESC before times up (starts another timer of 20 working days from this point to provide copy of ESC)
Provide copy of ESC

So essentially you could take 19 days to issue a ESC and a further 19 to provide a copy? So up to 40 days from connection to supply to actually providing a copy of said ESC

Also why is all the ESC stuff in working days and providing a copy of CoC just 20 days? Mistake or on purpose you think?

[AlecK]

Working Days will have been a deliberate choice; allows for not only weekends but also public holidays.
I suspect they fixed on 20 WD as a standard length of time, being essentially 4 weeks in normal circumstances (a "working month?).