Esr 70

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Dan L
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Esr 70

Post by Dan L »

In regards to esr 70.

Is it an inspectors responsibility to go in the roof space and check how the mains have been installed?

I am currently going into roofs paces and checking where 16mm tps have been used between meter box and MSB to make sure this mains cables is not run under trusses/with in 50mm of surface of ceiling. (many have)

Some more experienced inspectors think we do not have to check in roof and if it comes down to it the electrician will be at fault.

I feel esr 70 says we should be checking but then what's the diff in checking roof and digging down to 500mm in a few spots to check in mains is correctly burried.

Both seem reasonable practical and doable

I don't know many inspectors that go in roofs but from what I see about 1 3rd of electricians are running 16mm tps main in a non compliant way.

Ps I'm currently checking in roofs but not digging to check depth I just check around boundary area and entry area.

. Guidance appreciated
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gregmcc
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Re: Esr 70

Post by gregmcc »

There is an element of trust between the inspector and electrician, as an inspector how you achieve the inspection is up to you, personally if it's for someone you don't know then poke your head thru the manhole and have a look, as the electrician to dig a hole where the mains were buried and measure the depth, it will either be compliant or not, if it's not then next time it should be as the electrician will know that you actually check. Remember at the end of the day you can issue the ROI with a fail if it's not fixed.

I've done inspections that have failed, given the electrician the opportunity to fix, only on one occasion it hasn't happened - A failed ROI was issued. What happened after that - I don't know but it's listed on the high risk database as a fail
Dan L
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Re: Esr 70

Post by Dan L »

I was under the impression failed inspections are not uploaded to database or at least do not have to be?

Thanks for your feedback. I do something similar I have dug up mains before to find cables at 250mm and found mains run in a non compliant way in roof. Of course i got electrician to fix these things mid inspection

We are under alot of pressure to get Inspections done quickly so if I do not have to check these things I'd rather not as they are more hassle than it's worth for me making Inspections take longer

Ideay Inspections should not be under such time restraints but unfortunately this is how things are.

Saying that I also want to do things correctly.

Put it this way if someone hit a cable at a shallow depth or stuck a screw through mains too close to surface of ceiling would the inspector be blamed for not checking these things ?
This is really what I want to know.
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gregmcc
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Re: Esr 70

Post by gregmcc »

Yes the inspector is responsible, there have been a number of polarity reversals on mains in the past and inspectors prosecuted for it. Polarity checks are a mandatory check and it was obvious that these were not done. So check whatever you need to be happy, don't be afraid to fail the inspection if it's not right, but be reasonable.
Dan L
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Re: Esr 70

Post by Dan L »

I don't no if polarity is a good example to compare the situation with.

Polarity is extremely clear that is responsibility of the inspector / person livening

I would like to think the inspector would not be held as accountable for a mains cables incorrectly ran in roof or not deep enough in trench as the inspector would be held for blatantly not testing and lying on ROI.


With the amount of average electrical companies smashing new houses it seems to me like its just a matter of time before there will be an an accident.

Looks like I will continue to check in roofs then.

What about burried mains realiscally how much would an inspector be held accountable seeing as you could not dig up entire length of cable to check. Had there ever been an incident like this before and if so how did it turn out for the inspector
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DougP
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Re: Esr 70

Post by DougP »

It's not unusual to get UG mains inspected before the trench is filled.
Or if you're trusted by the inspector, photos proving the depth and protection/marker strip are installed would be acceptable.
AlecK
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Re: Esr 70

Post by AlecK »

Who carries the can depends on exactly what was done / not done.
There are several individuals who can be held to account.

For general work, there's the person who does the work, the person who certifies it, and then the person who connects. They may well all be the same person, but the lines of responsibility are different. And since the person who actually did the work is not usually identified responsibility generally rests with to the individuals who sign CoCs / ESCs .

For high risk work, add an Inspector. The Inspector can't be anyone who did / supervised / certified the high risk work, but they can also be the person connecting. Again the lines of responsibility are different for each role.

For incorrectly-installed mains cabling (eg insufficient depth of burial [3.11.4.4] or within 50 mm of ceiling [3.9.4.2]); the primary offender would be the person who certifiedthe work, along with whoever did it - but the inspector would share responsibility. ESR 70 requires us to be "satisfied" that the work was done i.a.w ESRs and that it will be safe when connected to supply. It specifically requires us to undertake "whatever tests, visual inspection, or other actions are necessary" to satisfy us. Some may be easier to satisfy than others, and I believe most of us place a degree of trust in the installers / certifiers we deal with. But if an adverse incident occurred - or more commonly if a complaint were laid - the Board would be the judge of whether we had been too easily satisfied. It's worth noting that nothing allows an Inspector to rely on a CoC.

It's a fundamental principle of the entire certification system that there's no electrical hazard until connected to supply; which is why ESRs make the person connecting the key player; and allocate primary responsibility for safety to that person. The person connecting also can't rely on documents alone; they must do particular tests specified in ESR 73A, including polarity. So if polarity turns out to be incorrect, the person connecting would carry most of the responsibility - but the certifier and inspector would also be liable.
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Re: Esr 70

Post by Dan L »

Thanks everyone for you input much appreciated.
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